Podcast Empowering Diverse and Multicultural Voices Season 1, Episode 4

All right. My name is Somer Simpson, and I am the VP of Product at Quantcast. And we are here today to discuss the diversity, equity and inclusion subcategory of what you probably have heard a lot about lately, which is responsible media, which is a hot topic in the digital advertising industry right now. You can tell something has moved from being a trend to being more of an expectation, when you begin seeing references to it in RFIs or requests for information, for big advertising agencies, and we’re seeing that a lot, which I think is a good thing. Responsible media is inclusive; it’s an umbrella term that covers things like data ethics, consumer privacy, diversity, equity, and inclusion—better known as DEI, responsible journalism—meaning not spinning your dollar to support fake news, brand safety, and even sustainability. But today, we’re gonna focus on DEI. I am very much honored to be joined by Damian Benders, who’s the General Manager at B Code Media, as well as Gonzalo Del Fa, who is President at GroupM Multicultural. And these two have become two of my favorite people in the industry to have really fantastic dialogue with on this critical topic. So welcome to both of you. Before we get started, can each of you talk a little bit about who you are, what your role is, and what your organization does. And let’s start with Damian.

Damian Benders 

Hello, Somer. Thank you for the great introduction. I’m excited to be here as well. These issues really hit really close to home for me as both a person and as a professional. And I work for a company called My Code Media. My Code is a multicultural media platform and agency that is focused on, from a mission perspective, ensuring that we have a future where all audiences are authentically represented in media and advertising, in particular. I’m the GM for B Code, which is the business entity that focuses exclusively on trying to reach and connect and create powerful strategies for the black audience. And so I’m excited that this conversation is continuing and really excited to join this panel.

Somer Simpson 

Excellent, thank you. Gonzalo, tell us a little bit about your role at GroupM.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Thanks, Somer, and you are one of my favorite people, too, so happy to be here. And of course, I’ve known Damian for a very long time and the guys from My Code, so pleasure to be here. I’m the president of GroupM Multicultural. GroupM is the holding company of four very large media agencies: Mindshare, MediaCom, Wavemaker, and Essence. And our role is basically to develop media and communication strategies and investment for our clients. We handle hundreds of clients across probably every single category in the industry. And I’ve been in this role for, I think now, 20 years. So I love what I do; I love the cultural space; I love that we’re having this conversation because we have to keep having to make people realize that multicultural is here to stay.

Somer Simpson 

Excellent. So let’s continue with that thread. So how does GroupM and your organization, in particular, think about diversity from an advertising perspective? And also, how has that perspective changed over time in the past two years?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

So, as I said before, I’ve been in this role for almost 20 years. So GroupM and its agencies have been very committed to the multicultural space. That said, multicultural has not been at the core as it is today. And again, I call it multicultural or we can call it the DEI—I think it’s basically about inclusiveness. That is the main purpose of everything we’re doing. Has it changed? Absolutely. I think that after the murder of George Floyd, a lot of companies and many of our clients have realized that they had to pay much more attention to diverse audiences. The reasons behind why they were not doing it before, I think it’s because they thought that they could get around it. And I think that what happened with George Floyd became a social movement that made companies realize that they cannot just avoid it; they cannot fake it; they cannot make believe they care. They actually have to demonstrate that they care, and they have to demonstrate they care by investing towards those audiences. So yes, it has been a huge shift in the last 20-24 months. But I think the greatest news is that this is not just a spike that we’re seeing for a few months, again, when we think that that has been growing over almost two years, and I do not see this decreasing at all. And I’m seeing more and more clients coming to us and saying, ‘We want to do more of this; we want to have a stronger commitment; we want to invest with purpose.’ I think that that is the word behind that, the responsible investment framework that we’re all talking about.

Somer Simpson 

So building on what Gonzalo just said, Damian, how is this increase and this discussion happening more often in the industry? How has it impacted publishers and your group in particular?

Damian Benders 

Well, I think that the social movement that Gonzalo referred to is an important inflection point, right? Because these issues have been similar for a very long time. People have been concerned with things; we’ve seen different changes in consumers and their trends and how they respond, and what their expectations are. I think what happened around the murder of George Floyd and the new social movement that followed is: there’s a certain amount of empowering that happened within the communities themselves, and a very specific type in which they acknowledged that there’s a problem, and that they were going to hold more of the world accountable for those problems than they were willing to before, or that they demonstrated the willingness to before. So, as Gonzalo referred to, some brands would not do it in the past, not because they didn’t necessarily care, but because they could get away with it. You know, we titled this panel ‘empowering diverse and multicultural audiences,’ and I think that that movement itself empowered that group. And that spilled over to the general population as well, where you see a real shift in the tangible expectations, the tangible decisions being made about what can what a consumer will purchase, where they will go, what they’re willing to say online, whether they’re willing to write in a letter, you know, etc. And, of course, the marketing industry is going to respond to that; of course, people marketing to consumers are going to respond to that, because the expectations are different. Being a corporate citizen, and being a part of the world has just simply changed. There’s ways you could do it before—write a check, or maybe announce something and have a small program. And really, the investment is much more intense, and then the expectation around those who do not commit to something around either protecting, enabling, empowering, or whatever the communities that are part of their revenue stream, there’s a real shift. On the publisher side, just like any other group of people that are representing eyeballs, are representing an audience, it’s reflected there as well. They are saying, ‘Oh, look, well, I’m going to reflect what my audience is seeing and wanting and doing in the world,’ and they’re putting that into the world. They’re also banding together in different ways in order to serve those audiences as well. And all of that is for the good; all of that is folks taking sort of a second look—second, third, fourth look—at what is it they’re doing and saying, ‘Am I actually doing this right? And does it align up with what we mean to be doing as a company and what I need to be doing as a person?’

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Somer, I would like to add to Damian’s point; it’s something that I think is very important. We’re talking about consumers’ expectations. And I think that is one of the key factors in why this is becoming more mainstream. So a couple of things I want to highlight: number one, many clients were really committed; many clients were already investing in multicultural audiences, and they were very diverse, very inclusive. And that was part of their core values. I think the difference is that now it’s becoming mainstream; everyone is now worried about it. So I think that that is an important piece to highlight, because again, it’s not fair for those that have been doing this for decades to all of a sudden put them in the same bucket and say, ‘Well, you know, everyone now is opening their eyes.’ So that’s number one. But the consumer’s expectation is what, I think, triggered after George Floyd’s murder, and it was kind of like the drop that overflowed the glass, because it was not the last one; he was not the first one; it’s not going to be the last one. So what happened at that point is that people, consumers in general, said, ‘Hold on, timeout. Why is this happening? Why are we not being represented? Why are we not being spoken to? What is wrong?’ And I think that, again—and Damian mentioned this, also—it’s not that brands were like, ‘I don’t want to do it, because I don’t want to talk to this audience.’ It’s the difference between intention and action. And now, companies are realizing that they need to put things in action. They cannot just say something; they need to make it happen.

Somer Simpson 

Do you think that the presence of social media is the thing that really was the catalyst that kind of gave consumers that microphone in these communities to speed this up and have it leap that chasm into the mainstream?

Damian Benders 

That’s an interesting question. I will say, from a brand perspective, this is unprecedented times in terms of the amount of access that a brand, or the agencies that represented them, have toward what the consumer, what a large group of consumers are really saying and what the prevailing sentiment is. There are obviously tools and resources to track that in a scientific way, and there’s the anecdotal about what goes viral, and people review everything themselves and say, ‘Is this trending well for me, or bad for me?’ And so I definitely think that the way we communicate today, and brands’ access to that, even without much rigor and research, has impacted how seriously or how real it feels for people in decision-making positions. Because, to the point we were making before, in terms of people being empowered, there was no shortage of communication directly with brands; there was no shortage of communication directly with people who were known to be leaders of those brands within those social media environments. And if you think about 25 years ago, when there’s outrage about insert-thing-here—you can use Rodney King or anything else—the access to what the prevailing sentiment is, before it had an opportunity to diffuse in any way, is just literally night and day. It’s an entirely different level of access. And so I don’t know if social media, empowered people—it seems like it’s a little late down the line to say that because they’ve been empowered to communicate for a while now in that method—but it definitely has changed how the people who they need to respond, whether it’s brands or agencies, partners, etc., how what their access is to, without doing research, to real details about how people are feeling, their reactions. And this is in the moment, though, to how many people care about this or don’t care about this?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Yeah. Somer, I think the fluidity of media today, the access to information in an immediate manner, from whatever the place on the planet you are, the globalization of media, all that kind of came together and made these reactions. If you think about it, George Floyd was killed in the US, but every country in the planet was reacting to that. And again, I want to highlight it was not the first black person murder in the US, but it was the first time, at least that I remember, that the whole world stood up and said, ‘This is wrong.’ So we are having DEI conversations, not just in the US, and probably what we’re doing, it’s more relevant in the US because we are based here—I would say in some respects, the US, it’s moving a little bit faster than other places. But we’re having the same conversation in France, in the UK, in Australia, in Germany, in, I mean, I was having conversations a couple of weeks ago with Turkey. So DEI is becoming something that is central to what any brand is doing. And I think that, again, as I said before, if we thought that this was a spike that happened because of George Floyd, and it was going to fade out, well clearly whomever thought that way is wrong, because it keeps growing and growing. And it’s becoming much more important as one of the main pillars within that responsible investment framework that kind of buckets all these initiatives together.

Somer Simpson 

Right. It’s almost like we’ve got: anybody, anywhere has a microphone, and is tapped into a free flow of information that helps us hold our society accountable, finally.

Damian Benders 

I think that we’re also getting better at it from a community standpoint. You know, for years, it was: representation was the focus, right? Are there people in the room? Are there people on the screen or in the ad, etc.? What does that look like? And does that look like the world? And I think what I’m really encouraged about in this new inflection point in the last two years, as well as what I see going forward, as we talk about responsible media, is the expansive expansion of the conversation, right? DEI is not just how many people of different varying backgrounds are available or have access to something, but also: are we reflecting lives; are we representing people in an authentic way; are we connecting with those audiences? Because that’s what we try to do in marketing. That’s ultimately the goal: I want you to love my brand; I want you to love my product; I want to have a relationship with you. And that’s not just through someone who might look like somebody like you in the ad, but also: do you understand who I am; do you understand where I come from; and does that have any bearing on the products and services that you’re offering me? The audience itself has changed that expectation as well. They are looking and being impressed or not impressed by what they’re seeing in different ways than they were before, right? You can champion all kinds of things but if you don’t champion the thing that you really want in the world and celebrate those brands or those media organizations that are doing it that way, no one’s really going to know how to reach that audience.

Somer Simpson 

It’s almost like, well, consumer attention span has dramatically decreased, right? We’re in the land of TikTok at this point. So it’s almost like brands need to understand that you’ve literally got a second to speak to a customer or a potential customer and make them feel like they belong, or they’re going to swipe left, right, in seconds. For the folks who are not already doing this—so either for the marketers that aren’t doing anything in this space at all, or for the ones that are curious—I want to understand from each of you, how you talk to them. What do you talk about? How do you help them get into this space? And Gonzalo, I’ll start with you.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Sure. For me, it’s all about inclusive marketing. We’ve been talking about that for quite a while at GroupM. We may have changed the name several times, but it was pretty much the same message over and over. Again, I think we have some challenges based on how things have been done for decades in the media world. One of them is the word ‘general market.’ It’s not general. And it’s not the market. So it’s a shame that when we have a Black campaign, we call it the Black initiative. We target Hispanics; it’s the Hispanic initiative. But when we target white people, we call this the ‘general market campaign.’ And that’s why I’ve been saying: why don’t we call things by the name and we call it just a White campaign? And it’s all cool. I mean, I’m not gonna be offended if somebody comes to me and says, ‘Yeah, this is money just to target white people.’ It’s absolutely valid. At the end of the day, to Damian’s point, it’s all about targeting the audience that you want, because you think it’s the most relevant one or the ones that are going to drive the best business or the best opportunity. I think that that has been our biggest challenge: that under that word ‘general market,’ we were hiding all the other things, and that is not inclusive marketing. For me, the way I talk to clients is, when you are defining your persona that you want to engage with, based on how you understand your product, you put a whole bunch of qualifiers, usually gender-related or age-related, and then you have what we call sub-qualifiers—people that like to go to the movies, people that enjoy watching video, whatever the case it is,—I think where we trip is when we say, ‘Well, this is for women 18-49. And there’s a tacit assumption that those are white women 18-49, when it’s all women, 18-49. Why are we not including all the other women that are not white in that conversation? So that has been our speech to clients. It’s all about inclusiveness. I would say, again, going back to the change in the last two years, I have not had one single location in the last two years that somebody said to me: ‘No, no, no, I don’t want to do this.’ Nobody got back to me, saying, ‘I don’t want to be inclusive.’ Because at the end of the day, all you’re doing is expanding the audience; it’s that simple. You’re expanding your opportunity to get more business. And unless you don’t want that, which again, if there’s a marketer that doesn’t want that—I don’t know, I don’t understand why he’s doing marketing—but again, let’s say that’s the case; it’s understandable. But it’s very rare that a brand manager, a CMO, or any kind of marketer is gonna say, ‘No, I don’t want to expand my audience. I want to reach this little amount of people here.’ So again, that’s one thing. And then the other piece is, and Damian referred to this: understand the commonalities and nuances of all these people. I learned, I studied marketing—that’s my degree—and that was several decades ago. When I look at those books that I read, back in the 80s, I still feel that those definitions of marketing absolutely apply to today’s life. Media may have changed, immediacy is different, coverage of media globalization—all those things probably changed from when I went to school to today. But marketing is pretty simple: it’s to target the right people at the right time with the right message for the right product. And that is the same. So why are we having such a hard time understanding why we need to be inclusive and diverse? I still don’t understand. I feel that that is a little bit of a problem of cosmopolitan countries like the US. There’s no multicultural in Latin America. When you go to Mexico, it’s Mexican. When you go to Argentina, it’s Argentine. We’re seeing this in places where there’s a more diverse group of people all together. Now, that’s from a pure race perspective. When we bring into this sexual orientation, well, how do we also include all these different people? How do we understand how they consume the product; do they consume it the same way as the rest? And again, that I think, is the trick of marketing: understanding the commonalities and nuances. Through the commonalities, you drive efficiencies; through the nuances, you drive effectiveness. Pretty simple.

Somer Simpson 

So, takeaway: I own a bread company, Somer’s Bread. There are people who like bread, and there are people who don’t like bread, right? So, Damian, I’m coming to you to talk about how do I best reach all the audiences that I can sell my bread to, so I can be a multibillion dollar breadmaker. How do you talk to me about what I do?

Damian Benders 

I start most of the time—particularly if you’ve only ever sold bread to one type of people, and that’s how you see the world—I start with typically trying to diminish some of the excitement and fear about the words. There’s a lot of ‘Oh, we have to do diversity! We have to be inclusive! We have to do this and a whole lot.’ And to Gonzalo’s point, I’ve been saying the same thing: marketing is marketing. Let’s all calm down. Let’s all take a deep breath. We’re really just trying to get you and your product connected with an audience. That’s what we’re doing. The same level of rigor, the same level of care, the same level of want and desire that you have when you were just putting together what naturally came to you, when you started developing campaigns, is the same energy to bring to when you’re trying to expand your audiences, when you’re trying to reach someone who identifies differently, who thinks lifestyle-wise differently, who moves through the world differently, because they may make decisions differently as well, and need the information presented to them in a different way. There’s a demystification, from my perspective, that I think is necessary. We’re taking a complex problem—there’s no question about it being a complex problem—but it doesn’t have to be a series of ever increasingly complex solutions. We can do the simple, right? We can say, ‘Hey, you know what, who likes widget x, and what kind of people are they? Right? And are there any other lifestyle realities, cultural realities, that make me shift either how I communicate with them, or the context of me communicating to them that I care about them? That is the most significant shift that I’ve seen, really in the last five years, and then even more so in the last two years. That conversation, that’s from a consumer perspective, that’s really about: you know what, I’m not sure you actually want me to be your customer; I’m not sure you designed this product for me as a customer—all that stuff—that used to not be the question. It used to be a given, from a minority perspective, that it wasn’t designed for us like that. I mean, that used to be the rule. And then it was a question of: well, can I use it? Or, you know, can I find a way to fit into my life? That shift, I try to educate people about and talk about as an opportunity for people to grow business. You know, in the same way that Gonzalo has been doing this for a long time, in this role I’ve been working in this space for a long time, and in this role that I’m in, now spend a lot of time trying to talk to everyone about the simplicity of it. Let’s not get overexcited; let’s not overcorrect. Let’s actually focus on the reality. We are trying to grow business. We’re trying to meet your shareholder expectations by growing the business. And at the same time, we’re trying to do so in a way that feels authentic and organically expands your audience. This, that second bit, can’t be done sort of by accident, right? The other piece that comes into all of my conversations, specifically initial conversations with someone who’s never done this before, is: what do you care about? What are the communities that you feel like your customers come from? And will it be meaningful to you if something that’s going on in that community is improved better, or at least spoken to? Because that’s where the authenticity comes from. Right? If you’re a big brand, and everybody’s your community, then it’s more about choices. If you’re a smaller brand or emerging brand, then it’s really about: okay, well, what does something mean to us? And how can I connect that back to the decision making, the decisions I’m making, in full conversations with my marketing agency or with the rest of my team. It doesn’t need to be: oh, I’ve got to throw a brown person or an Asian person into an ad, and then I’ve checked the box. It’s not helpful for the brown or Asian person, and it certainly isn’t helpful for you. What’s helpful is for you to find meaningful values that connect with those audiences and also align with what you mean to do as a business.

Somer Simpson 

That makes sense. You know, while you’re talking, I was thinking: Somer, the CEO of the bread company… if I only made bread for middle aged, white lesbians, I’d be out of business in a heartbeat. So why would I ever do my marketing just for that group of people? Right? Yeah.

Damian Benders 

That’s the key.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Yeah. And I think Damian made a good point. And it goes back to the beginning of the conversation we were having, where brands are also realizing that throw in a brown person or somebody that looks Asian or Hispanic was [not] enough. Now, consumers are telling brands that’s not enough. I’m not happy with that; you will change it or, if not, forget about us. And I think that that is what’s making brands now say—well, I’m not going to curse here, but—‘Oh shit, this is not going the right way.’ And again, it’s starting to have an impact in their bottom line. So I think we’re all good citizens. But on top of being good citizens, many of these people are very good business people. So this is not just about being a good citizen. I’m glad that people are trying to be good citizens and they’re doing this because they truly believe in inclusion and diversity. But it’s also a matter of business. If you fake it, they’re not going to buy you, and you’re in trouble. So you have to do it right.

Damian Benders 

It’s very important for brands to understand, from my perspective, that there isn’t a second and third opportunity to be authentic. It comes across very immediately whether or not you want to be there, or whether or not you feel like you’re doing charity work. When it comes across as, like, this was a charitable donation I felt like I had to give, you aren’t winning consumers; you’re especially not winning brand affinity and brand loyalty from multicultural consumers.

Somer Simpson 

Yep. So basically, if you’re not doing this kind of marketing correct, you’re gonna end up as the butt of a joke in a Reddit channel, and then it becomes a PR problem for you.

Damian Benders 

You can come back from it. I didn’t mean to say that you can’t ever be authentic if you’ve missed it before. But that first impression is the first impression. And fortunately, with the attention spans that we have as consumers, that sometimes you get to make another impression. It’s just it will stick. Like you said, people have a second with TikTok, right? They’re swiping to something else. I can tell instantaneously whether or not people of color were involved in the making of an ad. It’s not subtle. 

Somer Simpson 

Yeah, for sure. We’ve talked a lot about the what and the why. I’m sure there’s a lot of people that are wondering: okay, I get it; got it, sold. What now? How do we do this? So I want to take it down to the tactic level a little bit, and maybe even, let’s keep using the Somer’s Bread Company metaphor or analogy. How do I reach these audiences? How do I build the creative and get it in front of the right people? How do I measure success? This is what people typically do in marketing, right? You plan; you activate; your measure. How do people do this, who are moving into this for the first time? Because they haven’t been thinking about things beyond, you know, middle aged, white lesbians who like bread. What do you say to them? What do you do right? And what do you avoid doing?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

I mean, I think Damian made a very good point. This is not rocket science. This is no different than any marketing initiative you’re putting together in your annual plan. It goes back to really understanding the nuances of this consumer, and how you can talk to them, what is relevant to them, how you can be authentic when you talk to them. You know, at one point, a lot of people were talking about values. Values are values; they are universal values. It’s just how those values come to life within the different communities. So these, again, that is where you can really find the nugget to really build a true relationship with this consumer, when you really understand who they are, how they behave, why they behave that way, what is important to them, how their lives look like, how their families look like, how they make a decision in whatever the product they’re buying. Again, assuming that everyone behaves the same is where we started the wrong way. And this is something that sometimes we take for granted. And then everything goes wrong, because black people do not make decisions the same way that Hispanics or whites or Asians, so you really need to understand, not that much about a value, unless there’s a value that is extremely relevant for one group—which again, I think values in general are universal—is how that value comes to life, how that insight that you identified, you then communicate for somebody that is on the other side of these communications says, ‘Wow, that’s me. That’s my life they’re talking to. I’m having that product.’ So, again, it’s really understanding those little nuggets. I’m going to give you an example. We were talking with an automotive company, and they have these sales seasons, whatever, President’s Day… you know, they have every single holiday as a sales event. And in this particular case, he was all about giving a rebate, I think it was something like $2,500 rebate, and everything was about that. And I said, I don’t know if the $2,500 rebate is going to work for all the audiences. And they were like: it’s money. Like, I know it’s money. But there are other things that for different groups are more important than that $2,500. It took us a while to make the client understand. But finally, for Hispanics, there were other things that were more important. Like, for example, whatever happens in the backseat, because of the kids, it was much more important than the $2,500; for black people, it was more about features within the car than the $2,500. Because that’s what they look, they want the car to be almost like custom-made. So you can use the same one and hope for the best. Or you can really analyze the details and say: hey, you know what, for these people, this is more relevant; we’re going to give them this because we know it’s relevant for them. When these people see that, they immediately feel represented. And it goes back to Damian’s point about being relevant and being authentic. So, again, I think we need to take the myth of ‘Ooh, I’m going to do DEI now; I’m going to target Black people and Hispanics. Oh my God!’ Number one, probably you have an agency that has a clue. Number two, probably you have a lot of media followers that have a clue. Number three, probably you have a lot of people within your own company that have a clue. So, you know, think about that, before you start pulling your hair, then think about this as something that is just as, or similar to what you do as a regular marketing campaign. And then follow the regular process. When you put a campaign out there, you try to understand the most detailed target that you can. How can you be so good at doing that with white people in mind, and it’s so complicated to do it with other people in mind? Again, it’s just understanding the insights. So, again, I think that to your point, Somer, if you’ve been doing the same thing over and over, I’m pretty sure there’s an opportunity to talk to other ones that you never spoke to. And those people are the ones that are going to represent a larger opportunity for your brand. Because the ones you’ve been talking to, they know you. How much can you tell them about you? Now, the other ones never heard of you. So that’s the way for you to expand your business, to find a new revenue stream, to find a way to develop your brand. But again, you have to do it in an authentic way. Because this permeates very easily, and that’s when people start freaking out. And they say, ‘Well, I took the ad that I had on the general market; I translated it into Spanish and I put it on the Spanish language network. It didn’t work.’ Well, clearly, it’s not going to work because you did not create that or you didn’t do any analysis to really figure out if that was the right thing to do. Probably the whole process is wrong. But it’s not because it’s so complicated; it’s because you did everything wrong. So rewind, think again, think what you did, learn from it, and do it in a conscious way, not just to check the box.

Somer Simpson 

Because there’s no third-party data provider off-the-shelf segment that’s going to give you these audiences. 

Damian Benders 

No. I love the example Gonzalo gave there, just because it’s illustrative of what the challenge is on all sides, right? Folks think they have an answer: hey, here’s what I’m going to do! And sometimes that’s short-sighted or doesn’t actually acknowledge the audience. Sometimes there’s resources right in front of their faces, and they’re like, ‘What do you mean? I didn’t know that was there.’ And for some reason, there’s a process they’ve been following. For everything they’ve been doing in the past and all of a sudden, that process means nothing, because they’re going after a new multicultural audience that’s very difficult to achieve. I think part of what, if I’m talking to Somer’s Bread Company, part of what I recommend is to take stock of what it is that you are looking to do and what resources you have—whether it’s my company, Gonzalo’s company, anyone else—the internet, right? Research and insights are available for you to actually go and look. Not just these audiences over-index on technology, but how do we really use this? What role is it in your life, and how is that used, so that you can understand if buying bread on my app is going to work, if touting that makes sense. That’s a first step; there’s partners for it. And you want to ultimately have a point of view. The reason you chose white middle aged lesbians is because you have a point of view. That’s who you are. And so you have a fount of information about what it is that might resonate, might be good; is this going to work? The idea is to create that same fountain of information for the other audiences that you’re pursuing. And then, hopefully, work with people who are in those groups or, you know, outside in your expanded audiences, to vet and to develop, brainstorm ideas. There doesn’t have to be a struggle around it, to be really honest. One of the challenges that you talked about, just in terms of laying out, like, you plan, you activate, you track and measure—the tracking and measuring everywhere, all the way down the path, all the way to tracking and measuring—for some reason, we change the process, because we’re talking to, we’re trying to reach the Hispanic audience or the Black audience. That isn’t necessary to entirely change the process. You can change elements of it, and that’s a big conversation right now that’s going on and trending inside responsible media. How do we look at the landscape of reaching these audiences and set new goals? What is the benchmark within that community, and do we compare them to our, quote, ‘general market’ or what you’ve considered white people? Or do we make a new set of standards that understands that these audiences move separately? I think that all of it has to be layered together. You don’t have to reinvent every wheel. But you do have to take a look at whether or not the wheel is actually turning. Like is this working? Are we moving forward? Or is it a flat? Like, what’s happening here? And so my recommendation is to take it piece by piece and to seek the tools and resources, the partners that can help you. Because not including them, when you don’t have the information, is almost 100% of the time going to lead to a misfire. 

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Yeah, and Damian, you touched on measurement. I didn’t want to get into that, because I’m a psycho person, but it’s about measurement.

Damian Benders 

I’m obsessed with measurement. My number one issue. Yeah.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

And I think that is one of the biggest challenges in the industry. And again, it goes back to the habit, how things have been done forever. And it was: let’s measure how the market is doing and the market equals ‘general market’ equals white people. So we need to change that, I think we’re making some progress. And with ‘some’ I’m trying, I’m being a little bit positive, because it’s very, very slow. But the reality is that when, if you really care about all your different audiences, and you track any brand, you track gender, you track different age brackets, you track different markets, why do you not track, let’s call it, race, ethnicity, whatever you want to call it. On one hand, you may say, well, but that is kind of a form of discrimination. I don’t think it’s discrimination. I think it’s pure marketing. If I’m tracking how my, let’s say, 18-24 group of people are doing versus the 25-34, why cannot I track at the same time how my white audience is performing versus my Black audience versus my Hispanic audience. Because at the end of the day, that is going to also show me where those sales are coming from. Because I can guarantee you that if you do the analysis of any mature brand in the US, you’re going to see that the growth of many of them is coming from diverse audiences, not from the white audience, not to mention that it will go to the pure census data where the white audience is going down and the Black, Hispanic, and Asian are going up. So it’s a matter of time for the audiences just to shift. So again, measurement, I think, it’s a whole different conversation that needs to happen.

Damian Benders 

Right. Part of the situation is that we have an industry that’s old in a country that’s, well, getting older. And I think that part of it is, there are elements that we have to say, ‘Well, is this design this way as a relic of the past and in response to the past, or is it in response to a current world? There are a number of organizations and companies, brands that don’t want or don’t want to say that they’re tracking, ‘hey, here’s what my Black audience does, or here’s how many of them there are Asian, etc.’ The argument is that, as Gonzalo mentioned, that can be a form of racism or prejudice, etc. And I think that that reality is a relic of the fact that the country feels like we are prone to prejudice; we behave like we’re prone to prejudice, so let’s not even give it as an option, because people will use it, and marketers will use it. I think that that’s not going to change overnight. But what I do believe is that there are ways to try to understand these audiences and to track things in a way that allows you to respect and acknowledge them, without creating an opportunity for a new opportunity for more corruption and destructive, divisive behavior.

Somer Simpson 

Well, measurement is all about data, right? And with data comes great power, and with power, there comes responsibility, right? You have to be responsible in your data usage. And we’re actually, I mean, in the US today, marketers have access to that data; we can see race and ethnicity and gender and all these kinds of things, because the privacy laws have not gotten to the level that they have in Europe yet. In Europe, you can’t actually do that. So we have this need for good marketing; we’ve had a past of bad behavior; we have laws that are being created to prevent that bad behavior, but at the same time is sort of binding our hands in terms of what we can do responsibly as marketers. How do you see that evolving?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

I mean, I think that, I totally agree with you. I mean, once you have data, you have power; you need to be responsible. It’s this double-edged sword, because I know who you are, I can be better at talking to you, but I can also discriminate and avoid talking to you. And that, it’s a risk. You’re absolutely right. One of the challenges we’re having with DEI in Europe is not being able to use any personal information that may identify a person as whatever they belong to. Now, I think that there are ways to figure that out. I think that there are behaviors that are important. And I think at the end of the day, when I first said at the very beginning of our conversation, it’s all about inclusive marketing—if we were really inclusive, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Multicultural will not be part of a conversation; it will be just part of the marketing initiatives. We’re having this conversation because we’re not being inclusive. So I said a few years ago, or some years ago, that my goal was to make of multicultural something organic and dynamic in everything we do. Which is basically saying, I’m killing my own job. But for the greatest output, we need to move that way. If everyone would be analyzing people in an equal way, regardless of your skin color, your origin, your gender, you know, whatever, it will be easy. I’m just targeting you because you have a high potential of being my client, period. And I’m going to talk to you on a one-on-one basis because I know all this about you and I know what it’s important. That’s the secret of marketing, going from back in the day all we had was TV, so the larger reach, the better it was, to today where we can target individuals on a one-on-one basis. But we still need to add this layer of: don’t forget about these people because usually you tend to forget. But again, all data is dangerous. You know, your central box knows exactly what you do, 24/7, if you have a central box; your phone is telling me 99% of your life because, besides the few hours you sleep, the rest of your life, you’re doing something in front of the phone. So, again, that data is out there; we can make believe that no one sees it. But let’s be honest: I say today a word, and tomorrow, my social media—and I don’t want to say any name—is going to all of a sudden put me an ad of that. And I didn’t tell anybody; I just said it out loud in my house, probably talking to my dog. So, again,that data exists. We can make believe that, yeah, all this privacy and all that stuff. It’s absolutely right, that we need to put some boundaries and some restrictions within it. But, all that said, what we need to achieve is for everyone to understand that everything has to be inclusive of all audiences. If we get there, we are where we were supposed to be.

Somer Simpson 

If we get to a place where you don’t have a job, Gonzalo, that means that we have rid the world of racism and homophobia and misogyny, right?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I think I’d have a job for a while.

Damian Benders 

If you look at goals.

Somer Simpson 

So in the last bit of time that we have, I would love to do a run through of, over the course of your careers, without naming names, what are some examples of things that people have done, where they’ve just missed the mark in their attempts to reach multicultural audiences, because maybe they’re just trying to check the box.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Damian, you want to go?

Damian Benders 

No, you can start.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

We cannot say names, so that’s complicated. I mean, I think, again, you can even Google ‘racists ads’ and you will be blown away. I mean, I’ve done it. To be honest, I had to. I think I would flip your question. I think that there are a ton of companies that are truly committed. And they really care. And I think that they do not just say what is right or what sounds nice, they act behind it. And for me, acting behind it is not just once in a while having this charity event or this community event. It’s doing it all the time. And I think that consistency is one of the things that sometimes I feel many brands are missing. So all of a sudden, you have these companies saying, ‘Oh, it’s Black History Month; we need to do something for the Black audience.’ And the other 11 months of the year, no one sees them again. Same thing with Hispanic Heritage Month, or Pride, or whatever; I mean, you can pick whatever the month of the year. I had a conversation with a client and I said, ‘Okay, why don’t we invest all the money for Mother’s Day? And then we just go away? Talk to mothers? Let’s be honest, I don’t know how many mothers are in the US. But if half of the population is female, let’s assume a third of them are mothers, you have a good chance there. And the client said, ‘Well, I cannot do that, I cannot just talk one time in the year.’ So that’s what you do with the rest of the audiences. So what’s the big deal about it? And I think that’s the way way to make people react, or realize how wrong they are. Because I haven’t seen a brand that they spend all the money, unless it’s a very seasonal thing, that they spend all the money in a month or in a week or in a day. They think long-term. And again, cases that went wrong, I think they are many. I think sometimes things are being taken out of context. I think that brands that are absolutely committed, screwed up, and all the fingers were pointing at them. I would point the fingers at those that don’t even attempt to do something. I would rather have somebody trying and tripping and trying again and trying to figure it out more than the ones that are hiding in the bag. And they’re like I don’t want anyone to see me; I don’t want anyone to realize that they really don’t care. So again, I’m not saying that doing an ad that is totally wrong is the right thing to do. But if the intention is good, and you really want to move the needle, yeah, it’s not going to be easy. I mean, we all learn on the go; we can take every precaution we want, but you need to be on the field to play the game. You cannot play the game, you know, on paper. So again, I would blame those that do not give a shit about doing anything more than the ones that are trying. And I think that there are still many out there. And I remember one of the heads of one of the Spanish language networks made a very good point: there are 2000 advertisers on the general market, yet 300 within the Hispanic space; there’s clearly something wrong there. So what’s happening with them? Where are they? What are they thinking? What are they doing? And I’m pretty sure that if we do the same analysis with the Black community, we’re gonna get the same number. Again, it goes back to, if we could eradicate the word ‘general market’ and start calling that a white initiative, then everything is going to be much more clear. Because then we’re going to see that if you invest in this general market or general audience network, you’re going to reach everybody, and it’s going to be pretty, you know, soft. How do you then engage these audiences in a more authentic, relevant way? That, I think, is the core. Five years ago, after talking to 10 clients, if three of them invested in the Hispanic or multicultural space, I was the happiest person. Today, we are in the ratio probably eight out of 10. Those two piss me off.

Somer Simpson 

Yep.

Damian Benders 

Yeah.

Somer Simpson 

Damian, your thoughts? Same question.

Damian Benders 

Yeah, I think, you know, since we’re not saying names, I’ll focus on pitfalls and things to avoid. I really like what Gonzalo said about, you know, you have to be on the field to be playing. I echo the sentiment. I really give kudos to any organizations, brands, people who are meaningfully and with good intention trying to address this, both as a problem but also as a business solution. It’s a cultural problem; it is a business solution that people are trying to solve. And I think that companies have to be clear which side, which one of those they’re trying to do. Not everybody wants to be a state actor, despite their level of influence. And you don’t necessarily have to be. You being a good corporate citizen doesn’t require you to necessarily say, ‘Everybody in my company should vote the following way.’ But when you’re trying to have a business solution that expands audiences, there are things to avoid, because there are inevitably going to be good and bad outcomes. The first is not going to the second outcome, or the third outcome, or the fourth outcome. That’s it. That’s what I’ve seen for most of my career, when people say things like, ‘Oh, well, I tried, you know. I spent like a half a percent of my budget, then did like two campaigns last year, and you know, it didn’t work out. So you know, it’s just not a good audience for us; we’re not going to do it.’ Right. Okay. Well, is that how you handle the general market campaigns that didn’t work? Because what percentage of those didn’t deliver the results you were expecting? More than that other group? Okay. Because you did more of them, right? This is why I say the thing about rigor and the same level of effort, right? You know, key people come to us all the time: I want to do this campaign. What else would you like to do?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Damian, if you don’t mind, you made an amazing point. Recently, we were talking and I said, “When you do something—because again, another excuse is ‘we’re going to test; we’re going to test if this works’—and I always say the same: you test to learn and improve. You don’t test to kill.” 

Damian Benders

Exactly. 

Gonzalo Del Fa

But most of the time, to your point, Damian, about what ‘I invested .1% of my budget and it didn’t work and I ran it for three weeks, and I didn’t see the results.’ Because we see this all the time. I mean, we’re not joking: what Damian is saying is true, what I’m saying is true. I have been in this conversation a million times, where like, ‘Well, we put the ad that we have, the one that we threw out because we didn’t know what to do with it, we put it in this place to target this audience. We ran it for four weeks; we didn’t see a lift, or the lift was only 2%’—which, by the way, the other campaign’s minus seven—‘but only 2% lift. So it’s not worth it.’ Or worse than that: ‘We tested; it didn’t work. We’re not going to ever do it again.’ And then it takes five years for somebody to convince that same brand to invest in this audience. I’m sorry, I interrupted that but I wanted to jump in with the test.

Damian Benders 

I’m glad you did. I You know, it’s a point worth reinforcing, right? Because the folks who are in our kinds of positions, the roles we have are about guiding organizations and people through this effort, leading the horse to water, so to speak, sometimes helping them drink and whatnot. And the types of things that you hear, the types of things that are either challenges or reasons to abandon the project or etc., are universal, like, “Oh, I tried,” and so that category of things, I made in an article at Ad Age. I was talking about your kid, and you have them go into soccer practice, or basketball, or whatever it is, or music class or something like that, and you hear that they can be good, and they just need to practice and they need to do well, and they can get better. The whole family believes; the parents are together; and they run that child to class and practice three times a week, twice a week, once a week, whatever it is, and they keep going for years at a time. This is what you do when you believe that you can connect with the multicultural audience and expand your audience. You keep doing it; you keep trying; you find things you’re not good at, you fix them. You try to focus on things you are good at and get really great at those, and you do better. It’s not actually a process where it’s like, ‘Oh, well, I turned the TV channel, didn’t like anything; I turned off the TV. And now I’ll never watch TV again. Who knows if there’s something good on there!’ It’s sort of how people act sometimes. The other thing I would say in terms of pitfalls is being so frightened or hurt or offended or challenged, whatever the words are around making a mistake, that you handle the management and return from that mistake really, really poorly. Because that is the way to really destroy trust with an audience that in some cases actually really doesn’t come back. This happens every year, just Google it: ‘major racial fail’ or anything like this. And every year, there’s some brand that does something, releases something; it was well intentioned, but it didn’t go well or was really seen as tone deaf. And then there’s another brand that does it. And they handle the PR well; they are proactive; they’re trying to be clear; they seek counsel; they accept responsibility and indicate that isn’t what we intended, we pulled it from these places, and here’s what we’re going to do. Those who are defensive and/or just silent, the story gets filled in on their behalf of not only what they feel but who their brand is. And if you try to avoid those two problems, just getting out of the business, number one, and on the other hand, succumbing to the perils of something going poorly, you’re going to end up in a much better position, probably in the top 95th percentile against most other competitors, if you manage to avoid both of those pitfalls.

Somer Simpson 

One of the things that struck me while we were talking, Gonzalo, what you’re talking about as getting rid of that term ‘general market,’ the same could be true within the sub-groups of people, right? So I see all of our IOs and stuff come through, because there’s lots of questions. Can we do this thing? And I’m the product person who has all the answers. And I become sort of the de facto ‘do we have this audience? How do I reach them?’ person, because of the work that we did with Ki’s agency WITHIN. Now I’m just de facto that person. And I’ve had people come to me and say, “Well, can you get a supply for women-owned and operated publishers?” And I’m like, “It doesn’t exist.” And like, “No, no, that can’t be true. There’s got to be one.” I’m like, “Name one. Name one ad-driven, content publisher or network that is owned and/or operated—you can even use an ‘or’—by a woman. Most of the answers are going to be: “Well, this blog,” right? Yeah, that’s not a multimillion dollar publishing group with enough people to scale for your advertising. And then with LGBTQ+, it’s the same, right, as people like, “Oh, we want to reach the LGBTQ audience.” Well, yeah, we put a bunch of letters together, but that doesn’t meet or mean it’s one bucket that you’re going to be able to reach with one message. Are you trying to reach gay men, lesbians, trans men, trans women, non-binary? What about anyone in that group of color?

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Yeah, that’s why I said before, that if we could eradicate the ‘multicultural’ word, if we can be fully inclusive, it’s about targeting that audience that makes the most sense. From a pure business perspective, it is not about doing any charity. Because each of these groups also have a whole bunch of different qualifiers within them. So it’s interesting, because I remember when I started in this business, Hispanic was where most of the money was going. And then, you know, Black audiences were the other ones, then Asian came in. And I remember talking to clients and they were Asian—you have people that have nothing to do with each other. Nothing. I mean, a Chinese, a Middle Eastern, and an Indian have nothing to do with each other, but they are all under the bucket of Asian. So why do we need to do this? When going back to the definition of marketing, and I’m talking about Philip Kotler, okay? I’m not talking about the guy that wrote the book yesterday—I don’t know when Philip Kotler wrote the book about marketing, but that’s the one that I used to study, Philip Kotler and I can’t remember the name of the other guy, but there were two main books; they define all this in a very clear way. Why are we making it so complicated? Because to your point, Somer, even when you go into the LGBTQ community, you have a whole bunch of different things in between that have nothing to do in common, or they have nothing in common at all. So again, I think it’s about defining that persona the right way and then being inclusive of whatever is out there that check all those boxes. Forget about all the other things we are adding. We are creating the monster. Yeah, it’s not that hard. So again, I think that that’s why we’re having this issue. And the other person was Michael Porter, by the way. So Philip Kotler and Michael Porter, every single freaking marketing book that I studied was about these two guys. And you can go back—I did recently, and I said, “Why are we making it so complicated?” And I read that book again, and I’m like, “Wow, this was defined a while ago, and it still applies.” And again, we are making these… kind of like creating these boundaries around things that shouldn’t have any if we truly believe we are 100% inclusive. 

Somer Simpson 

Yep. So it fundamentally comes down to: stop putting people in buckets and trying to reach those buckets. Just try to understand the behaviors that indicate if somebody is interested in something or not. And then the behaviors that indicate how to talk to them.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Exactly. Exactly.

Damian Benders 

I think that there is… our imagine the future, as what was what we’re discussing right now, is exactly what we want: we want a world where it’s not about this identification or that identification, or you know, anything else. And I really think that the subgroups, and like, ‘Oh, well, there’s the Black and Hispanic and whatever, emerged as incrementalism. Like, you know, ‘We’re not really going to be inclusive. Well, maybe I’ll just add this one. They seem powerful or important, and so I’ll add them.’ And then it was like, ‘Well, maybe there’s another, so we can add them.’ Adding them in subgroups continues, the process of just adding one at a time, incrementally: this is important, this is important, and that is important. And so there’s something to, I think, the idea of trying to break down those walls and barriers between things and moving into kind of an approach that says: let’s focus on commonalities, alignments, values, interest areas, etc. It’s just going to be interesting to see how we get there. I don’t think it’s going to happen soon, but I think it’s gonna happen.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Yeah. And Damian, to your point, and again, I don’t want to sound extreme. But when you said, let’s add this one and wait for the next one. Not being inclusive is a way of discrimination. 

Damian Benders 

Exactly. 

Gonzalo Del Fa 

People may not want to hear this, but that’s the reality. The moment you exclude somebody, you’re discriminating. The moment you do not include somebody is discrimination, too. So we need to be clear with that, because we’re all in these words, kind of like saying that we do not discriminate, that there is no bias. But the moment you left someone out that was supposed to be part of that group because you checked all the boxes you had in mind, you’re actually discriminating.

Somer Simpson 

That’s a good point. Right? And if you think about ticking those boxes in terms of expanding your market share, that’s shining a light on the fact that you assumed your original market share was straight white men.

Damian Benders 

That doesn’t even need to be said; they do assume that.

Somer Simpson 

All right, we’re at the end of time. But I want to thank both of you for joining me. And for the talk. This was fantastic. Good conversation.

Damian Benders 

Thank you for having me. And I look forward to the next one.

Somer Simpson 

Absolutely.

Gonzalo Del Fa 

Thank you, guys. Thank you.

Somer Simpson 

Great, thank you both. This podcast is brought to you by Quantcast. Our mission is to radically simplify advertising on the open internet. We are the creators of a new and innovative intelligent audience platform that empowers brands, agencies, and publishers to know and grow their audiences online. The Quantcast Platform, powered by our patented AI and machine learning engine, delivers automated insights, marketing performance, and results at scale to drive business growth responsibly. Our solutions are leveling the playing field for our customers when it comes to effectively reaching audiences online and helping them power a thriving free and open internet for everyone. Connect with us today at quantcast.com.